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Old 04-27-2018, 12:50 PM   #21
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Default Re: Hobbywing Xerun AXE

Still bored at work so here's a few google-translated bits of information from the German site:

The*XeRun AX FOC Brushless Controller*automatically*adjuststorque and speed according to load demand.

The motor and controller are connected via a waterproof, special sensor plug.

This technique is called*FOC (Field-Oriented Control)*and is responsible for this super steering feeling.

The efficiency could also be increased by FOC.*This is achieved by sinusoidal motor control, motor and controller remain cooler during operation and you also achieved a silky soft, quiet engine running.

With the professional*handbrake function*, your vehicle is now 100% immobile, even on the steepest slopes.*Do not crawl away, just stand motionless.

The combo with controller and motor is well protected for the rough crawler everyday.*All components are waterproof and protected against dust.*So nothing stands in the way of an employment in each area.

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Old 04-27-2018, 02:12 PM   #22
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Default Re: Hobbywing Xerun AXE

FOC sounds like a fancy name for a fancy gyro.
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Old 04-27-2018, 02:25 PM   #23
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Default Re: Hobbywing Xerun AXE

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Originally Posted by Frank211 View Post
FOC sounds like a fancy name for a fancy gyro.
I thought gyros were in the receivers, not the ESC.

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Old 04-27-2018, 02:54 PM   #24
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I thought gyros were in the receivers, not the ESC.

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Super steering feeling, what would that be then?
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Old 04-27-2018, 03:13 PM   #25
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Default Re: Hobbywing Xerun AXE

Bad chinese to german to Google-translated to english?


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Old 04-27-2018, 03:13 PM   #26
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Default Re: Hobbywing Xerun AXE

I highly doubt it is real FOC which is very specific to each motor, but just sinusoidal with a velocity loop. If this is a one motor only combo, maybe it is real FOC.


I'll call it now though. Having the rig stay the same speed through an object is a terrible terrible method of control. What happens when you get bound down? It adds more power for you to keep the speed up. No force feedback. It ends in broken parts because there is no feedback on how hard the motor is working. The ESC is now making your throttle decisions for you.
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Old 04-27-2018, 03:18 PM   #27
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Default Re: Hobbywing Xerun AXE

You just crushed our dream...

Can you please make a cheaper "Holmes" Mamba X with Bluetooth and waterproof sensor cable?

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Originally Posted by JohnRobHolmes View Post
I highly doubt it is real FOC which is very specific to each motor, but just sinusoidal with a velocity loop. If this is a one motor only combo, maybe it is real FOC.


I'll call it now though. Having the rig stay the same speed through an object is a terrible terrible method of control. What happens when you get bound down? It adds more power for you to keep the speed up. No force feedback. It ends in broken parts because there is no feedback on how hard the motor is working. The ESC is now making your throttle decisions for you.
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Old 04-27-2018, 03:28 PM   #28
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Default Re: Hobbywing Xerun AXE

I'm sure some people might like how the drive feels. People who don't get the rig bound down or want any sort of feedback to the power the system is outputting. Hopefully they have an option to remove the velocity loop in programming and use normal voltage controlled throttle. Otherwise, this feature will be both the attraction and the worst part. It will be polarizing.


I've been blocked by Castle for future affordable ESCs through them as OEM partner, they want the market for themselves. Hobbywing has told me they will not OEM to me, except for some really old hardware that would be stupid to use. They want the market for themselves. I'll have to do it all in house, it's a rather long timetable to engineer a motor controller.
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Old 04-27-2018, 03:34 PM   #29
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Default Re: Hobbywing Xerun AXE

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Originally Posted by JohnRobHolmes View Post
I'm sure some people might like how the drive feels. People who don't get the rig bound down or want any sort of feedback to the power the system is outputting. Hopefully they have an option to remove the velocity loop in programming and use normal voltage controlled throttle. Otherwise, this feature will be both the attraction and the worst part. It will be polarizing.


I've been blocked by Castle for future affordable ESCs through them as OEM partner, they want the market for themselves. Hobbywing has told me they will not OEM to me, except for some really old hardware that would be stupid to use. They want the market for themselves. I'll have to do it all in house, it's a rather long timetable to engineer a motor controller.
Well that kind of sucks for you John! Hope you get it all worked out soon, you still have my support.
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Old 04-27-2018, 03:36 PM   #30
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Default Re: Hobbywing Xerun AXE

Well they can keep the esc market since there isn't much other choice but Im buying a Holmes motor!

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Old 04-27-2018, 03:40 PM   #31
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Default Re: Hobbywing Xerun AXE

Part of being in business for 13 years is having larger companies take some pie when they see it is delicious. The only sad part is watching old customers jump ship and then be "surprised" when I tell them I've had to lay off employees because my customer base is shrinking. Shouldn't be surprising
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Old 04-27-2018, 07:11 PM   #32
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Default Re: Hobbywing Xerun AXE

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Originally Posted by JohnRobHolmes View Post
Part of being in business for 13 years is having larger companies take some pie when they see it is delicious. The only sad part is watching old customers jump ship and then be "surprised" when I tell them I've had to lay off employees because my customer base is shrinking. Shouldn't be surprising
Having been around here for quite a while and having heard some of the way Castle has treated you over the years, it made me lose some respect for them. I'll be one of the first in line when it comes time for a 100% Holmes ESC.
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Old 04-27-2018, 11:28 PM   #33
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Default Re: Hobbywing Xerun AXE

My 5 minute translation, FWIW:

Intelligent torque and RPM control for precise maneuvers!
The AXE FOC BL ESC automatically regulates torque and RPM according to load requirements.

Example: you’re driving at a constant speed on a flat surface and come to a steep climb. With existing ESCs you have to add throttle to keep the speed constant, and when you descend you have to reduce throttle or even brake so the speed doesn’t increase.

Our XR AXE ESC motor combo enables the smoothest and most precise maneuvers while crawling in all RPM ranges.

Hardware-wise the motor is specially suited to the ESC and uses HW’s patented “staggered pole” rotor design. That means that the 4 pole motor hardly has any resting torque (static torque?). Super soft response and accelleration at low RPM is the result. Motor and ESC are connected via special waterproof socket.

The tech used is called FOC (field oriented control) and is responsible for this super (oh yeah) feeling of control. Efficiency can also be increased through FOC. This is done through sine wave motor drive, motor & ESC remain cooler and you get silky smooth running.

With the professiona handbrake function your vehicle momentarily stays still even on steepest grades. No creeping, just standstill.

For the pro the ESC offers many settings. Linked through bluetooth and our app, relevant data can be read out, settings changed or firmware updated, all simply and easily.

The combo is protected for the rough crawler allday. All components are WP and dust proof.

-----

I'm guessing they have some sort of limiting built in and won't allow the ESC to up the power to point of failure. Also, slipper clutches!
If it works as advertised, should give a nice smooth feeling ride, like a system with one hell of a gear reduction.

Looks like some sort of sealed bayonet plug for the sensor, certainly better than that thing that was designed for cars that run on dry tracks and get maintenance after every run and is crap for bashing/trails.

John, can you perhaps tell (from their advertising mumbo) if the sensor system is standard or the FOC thing could involve more/different sensors?
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Old 04-28-2018, 06:11 AM   #34
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Default Re: Hobbywing Xerun AXE

Good question. If they want to implement real FOC without hefty Fourier transformations in software, the sensor will be a sin/cos arrangement. It could also be used to get better than 3 bit positional accuracy. Them saying it is sinewave is contrary of being FOC, as FOC waveform is technically the same as the motor bEMF and not just pegged into trap or sine shapes. I’m skeptical at it being true FOC, as even a different KV would necessitate reprogramming to run half decent. Unless the startup routine polls the motor constraints every startup, it simply is marketing fluff.

I’ll get one and test it out. Whether it is real FOC is not really important, but the claim is being made. I know how velocity loops drive, and it’s better than torque drive, but less predictable than voltage drive.

Being a proprietary plug will be a hassle for compatibility, but if it’s good then the function will follow.
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Old 04-28-2018, 08:23 AM   #35
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Default Re: Hobbywing Xerun AXE

Keep us updated if you get to try it. It's really a shame that they couldn't get some kind of AUX wire fonction in there as well.
Is it a Castle Patent?

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Old 04-28-2018, 09:55 AM   #36
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Default Re: Hobbywing Xerun AXE

I like the idea of the BlueTooth connectivity. But, as JH said, I really do NOT care for the idea that the ESC will be "over-riding" me and making throttle input decisions in certain instances. I think that will translate to a real vague, wonky feeling when crawling, and as JH said, huge potential for broken parts in a bind situation. No thanks!

The BT connectivity is intriguing though, and I suspect it's just a matter of time before it's standard in all mid to higher end ESC's. Honestly, I'm quite surprised it took this long to implement. How nice will it be to be able to pull the app up on your phone and make real time changes when testing, tuning, competing.

Personally, I'll wait for the HH edition. I have had HH ESC's and Motors in all my rigs - both brushed and brushless. The key reason being they work excellent, and the customer support is levels above in my experience.
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Old 05-07-2018, 02:36 PM   #37
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Default Re: Hobbywing Xerun AXE

Well it's May and still no info other that what has been dug up / Google-translated.

John do you have any kind of early access being a business rather than just a customer ?
Maybe you could score an early review ?
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Old 05-08-2018, 09:32 AM   #38
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No directly related to the truck and scale world but i recently saw an article about the new DJI Phantom 4 Pro 2.0 drone and they advertize : Upgraded propulsion system with FOC sinusoidal driver ESCs.

Is FOC going to be the new marketing ''cool'' word for 2018-2019 ?
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Old 05-08-2018, 09:39 AM   #39
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Originally Posted by Jboucher View Post
No directly related to the truck and scale world but i recently saw an article about the new DJI Phantom 4 Pro 2.0 drone and they advertize : Upgraded propulsion system with FOC sinusoidal driver ESCs.

Is FOC going to be the new marketing ''cool'' word for 2018-2019 ?
FOC = free of charge in my book, so that gets a +1 from me

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Old 05-08-2018, 10:14 AM   #40
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Default Re: Hobbywing Xerun AXE

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jboucher View Post
No directly related to the truck and scale world but i recently saw an article about the new DJI Phantom 4 Pro 2.0 drone and they advertize : Upgraded propulsion system with FOC sinusoidal driver ESCs.

Is FOC going to be the new marketing ''cool'' word for 2018-2019 ?
Had to capture some of that "graphene" market share.
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