2014 scale rules discussion or question thead

[doublej]

You are completely right r2j - Problem is the rules, nor you, I or anyone else can define the word scale.
The only time the rules affect the scale aspect of peoples rigs, is when it keep things fair between one driver and another.

As soon as opinion is inserted into a set of rules - the rules no longer are there for the greater public. They are then only for the smaller group of people that hold the same opinion.

[youngblood]

Here are some questions I’ve been holding onto over the past year.



1. A full custom hard body is worth -4 but a stock hard body is worth -8?
Why?
Shouldn’t the labor of a full custom body be worth the same if not more than a off the shelf body?




2. I almost didn’t mention this one, but I’ve seen some pretty neat custom lexan bodies that looked like they had a ton of work in them.
Just because its lexan instead of ABS they get no extra points?




3. The new 2.2 TSL xl made by pro-line is a perfect class 3 tire. Yes it’s listed as 5.8” tall and the rules say 5.75 but this tire should be made class 3 legal.
It’s the same real world height as other popular tires in the class and an amendment or a rule change should be made. (People sponsored by other tire companies shouldn’t be the ones making this decision…)




4. Multi-axle rigs get no love. I’d love to see more 6x6s and 8x8s at comps. This should be rewarded more than the current -3pts per axle. (Mounting a spare tire is worth -3 for crying out loud.)




5. Minimum class 3 gate width.
I know this has been talked about here before but this is too narrow for class 3. This is a class built around AR60 axles and a box stock wraith is over 11” wide.
The ratio of rig to gate width for C1 & C2, are more realistic than the average C3 width ratio. Just going up 1” per class doesn’t make sense.




6. Drop bed is worth -3pts but SUV cargo area is only worth -1pt.
Why?
SUV cargo area is just as much work to fabricate, if not more.



7. Finally, and I know I’m likely to get banned from events for this one… but dig should be allowed in class 2. Plenty of street legal 1:1s have twin stick transfer cases and the ability to front dig (my 1:1 included.)
It’s a very scale functional item and it seems like a logical way to advance the class.



Thanks for any answers/suggestions/thoughts.
-Brian Potter

[R2j]

1- The -4 or -2 are in addition to the -8 hardbody points.

2- As of now, no additional points. But that may be something to look at.

3- This was discussed in depth, but ultimately decided to keep the rule as is. And I guarantee you that our decision has/had nothing to do with what you alleged. This was a committee wide vote.

4- New for 2015 Multi-axled rig do get love, but no special points.

5- The rule does say "minimum"

6- Again, that is in addition to for a 3D interior

7- This was discussed before, but the intent was to leave it to C3 only.

[R2j]

Originally Posted by doublej

You are completely right r2j - Problem is the rules, nor you, I or anyone else can define the word scale.
The only time the rules affect the scale aspect of peoples rigs, is when it keep things fair between one driver and another.

As soon as opinion is inserted into a set of rules - the rules no longer are there for the greater public. They are then only for the smaller group of people that hold the same opinion.

The hell we can't define what is scale or not. This is a scale based sector of the hobby and we are the ones that help create said rules. I know that sounds sh*tty, but we are building scale versions of 1:1 vehicles. So why can't we define scale?

That's not opinion, that's fact, and rules start as an opinion of one or more, discussed, debated and then voted on.

[Rooster87]

I dont see the trouble with rule discussed in #5, as long as it is a minimum and a stock wraith can fit, why the complaints? if the gates were all 20 inchs wide minimum class three would be boring as hell or a rock race. I like that its kept as a technical crawl not a race. besides if a narrow axled rig makes a skinny gate that a wide rig has problems on, Im sure the same rig will have a much tougher time sidehilling. its a give and take, Like the whole building/setup/tweaking process. But thats just my opinion

[doublej]

Originally Posted by youngblood

4. Multi-axle rigs get no love. I’d love to see more 6x6s and 8x8s at comps. This should be rewarded more than the current -3pts per axle. (Mounting a spare tire is worth -3 for crying out loud.)

They get lots of love - what you talking about?

• Multi axle vehicles allowed in all classes and may use more than one front steering axle (front axles are considered any axles forward of the centerline of the skid), rear steer only allowed in modified class, C3.
• Rear steering(RS) or dig is allowed in modified class only, C3 (you must choose 1 per course).

• Multiple axles: 3 driven axles -3, 4 (or more) driven axles -5

[Olle P]

Originally Posted by R2j

The hell we can't define what is scale or not. This is a scale based sector of the hobby and we are the ones that help create said rules. ...

The problems arise when a rig is effectively penalised for being a (near) perfect scale model.

Example:
Modelling a specific 1:1 vehicle with all the detail and functionality possible. The vehicle is a four axle work horse and fits nicely into the general class 1 description. (Designed to travel bad roads but neither optimised nor modified for improved cross country performance.) The vehicle (read: tire) scale is therefore chosen to fit within class 1.
* The original doesn't have a winch, so first you do not get the -6 scale points you'd get by unrealistic adding winches front and rear. Then you're penalised again while driving for not having those winches.
* There are a couple of other "scale points" not awarded for not having equipment (and passengers) that isn't present on the original vehicle.
* The original requires three axle steering (the two front axles plus the rearmost) to get an acceptable turning radius. The model, with its scale realistic turning radius (worse than a stock SXC10), is thus promptly put into class 3!

Generally speaking:
As of now a scale realistic look will (usually) give you some merit, but scale realistic performance will hit you big time! (That's why I stay away from the "scale" scene.)

[Tin Soldier]

Come on lets face it. If you are building a competition rig, then you are building it to fit with in these rules to try to win. If you are building a rig to be highly scale looking, you probably aren't competing with it.

These rules are set for fair competition. Everyone I seen complaining about the rules is because they want everything to fit somehow or they hate that they have to make their stuff fit. To me it's simple. If you want to compete, here are some fair guidelines for everyone to follow. If you don't want to compete, then quit complaining.

We have 30 people a month at our comps and everyone is ok with the way the SORRCA rules work and we all build our rigs to compete with in those boundaries. We've tweaked them a bit where we saw fit, but for the most part they work just fine. Our class 1 group has started going a bit crazy with the uber scale look and feel, but still a comp rig. Still have winches, still use comp tires.

I think if you want to worry about super scale street legal stuff then SORRCA rules aren't for you. There are other rules and comp styles out there for that type of rig.

So far I just think most of the stuff I see in this thread is nitpicky because someone doesn't want to fit themselves in the rules.

I think the rules work. A kid can open an Axial box and get his -6 points and compete in c2. Next comp he will have made a few free mods and have -20. It's super easy to get to -30 or -40 and with a little work your rig can still look realistic.

I could build a rig to look just like my 1:1, but I would never take my 1:1 truck on an offroad comp. So instead I build tiny trucks to fit that need.

That is of course all my opinion. hahahaha no hard feelings. I just don't get the constant pushing on the rules. They seem to work fine.

[youngblood]

Originally Posted by doublej

They get lots of love - what you talking about?

Sure, they are allowed in all classes, but a measly -3 points is hardly worth adding an entire extra axle from a comp standpoint.

[distinctive pd]

Originally Posted by Tin Soldier

Come on lets face it. If you are building a competition rig, then you are building it to fit with in these rules to try to win. If you are building a rig to be highly scale looking, you probably aren't competing with it.

These rules are set for fair competition. Everyone I seen complaining about the rules is because they want everything to fit somehow or they hate that they have to make their stuff fit. To me it's simple. If you want to compete, here are some fair guidelines for everyone to follow. If you don't want to compete, then quit complaining.

We have 30 people a month at our comps and everyone is ok with the way the SORRCA rules work and we all build our rigs to compete with in those boundaries. We've tweaked them a bit where we saw fit, but for the most part they work just fine. Our class 1 group has started going a bit crazy with the uber scale look and feel, but still a comp rig. Still have winches, still use comp tires.

I think if you want to worry about super scale street legal stuff then SORRCA rules aren't for you. There are other rules and comp styles out there for that type of rig.

So far I just think most of the stuff I see in this thread is nitpicky because someone doesn't want to fit themselves in the rules.

I think the rules work. A kid can open an Axial box and get his -6 points and compete in c2. Next comp he will have made a few free mods and have -20. It's super easy to get to -30 or -40 and with a little work your rig can still look realistic.

I could build a rig to look just like my 1:1, but I would never take my 1:1 truck on an offroad comp. So instead I build tiny trucks to fit that need.

That is of course all my opinion. hahahaha no hard feelings. I just don't get the constant pushing on the rules. They seem to work fine.

Nicely put bro!!

[Scrap]

Originally Posted by youngblood

Sure, they are allowed in all classes, but a measly -3 points is hardly worth adding an entire extra axle from a comp standpoint.

-3 scale points for much improved climbing? I call that great.

A well build 3 axle rig with two steering front axles can keep up with a SCX10. Granted a well set up SCX10 will still beat it with a good driver.

You just have to build it and make sure you are building the courses and make many tricky climbs.

[badhoopty]

these are competitive events with expensive little scale trucks obsessed over by grown men, it is elitist by nature. if you just wanna go have fun out in the woods there are the g6 events and plenty of local clubs who dont run sorrca rules.

you guys that are saying its bad to turn somebody away for having an illegal rig or not knowing the rules, do you think somebody could take their radio shack buggy to the 2wd mod buggy class and be allowed in just because? show me any other organized event where if you dont meet the rules and requirements you are allowed to compete? im ignorant and i guess elitist but i cant think of any. granted there are things that could and should be exceptions to the new person who is unaware of the little details. like not completely having half your tire under the fenderlip in c1 or something like that... those could (and are) handled on a case by case basis during tech. but to write-in a bunch of rules and penalty values for those people who arent compliant with them kinda messes with the reason there are rules to begin with.

Originally Posted by Ripped

my rig isn't a dishwasher rack. I have a lot of time and thought in the work it took to make it. it's just not the same square style design you see everybody else building.

oh hey man i wasnt talking about the rig you posted when i made my snarky dishwasher rack comment. years ago on rcmt or clodtalk there was a dude who tried to make a tuber from cut-up shopping carts... that thing you built looks kinda like a moonbuggy to me and something somebody could build 1:1.

one of my favorite rigs here was that funky star wars a-wing looking thing that i think r2j made. that was a funky design but it looked like it could be a real rig tha somebody could get in and drive.

and speaking of r2j, im definitely in agreement that its entirely possible to determine if something is scale or not just by looking at it. that said, i have never once seen a rig at a comp that didnt look scale. i recognize that not everybody here (myself included) is not a builder capable of putting together the uber cool rigs, but anybody with a passion for crawling and scale trucks gets it.

[Olle P]

Originally Posted by Tin Soldier

Come on lets face it. If you are building a competition rig, then you are building it to fit with in these rules to try to win. If you are building a rig to be highly scale looking, you probably aren't competing with it.
...
I think if you want to worry about super scale street legal stuff then SORRCA rules aren't for you. There are other rules and comp styles out there for that type of rig.

So why even bother to call it "scale" rules if the competition objective is maximum obstacle negotiation ability?
Why not just define it as USRCCA rules with some additional vehicle cosmetics thrown in for good measure?

It's unfair to call it "scale" if actual scale realism, regarding both looks and performance, doesn't play a major part in winning the competitions.

If you know about some other organisation that actually use scale rules for radio controlled off-road vehicles, please enlighten me!

[Scrap]

By your standards Olle separate speed control for different axles should be allowed in all scale classes. A MOA for short. Citroen did a dual motor version of their 2CV.
Citroën 2CV - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Granted the factory model only had one gear stick and one accelerator pedal. The engines and transmissions functioned totally independent of each other. With a bit of modification you could use twin gear sticks, one for each transmission, and twin accelerators. Basically making it function like a MOA crawler. And this is a street legal vehicle with windscreen and wide bumpers so it's in class 1.

So do you think a MOA rig should be able to compete in the scale classes? I think someone makes a 2CV lexan body. Might have to postpone my class 3 build and make myself a class 1 MOA. Although it's not actually a MOA since it has independent suspension.

[youngblood]

Close this 2014 thread and sticky the new 2015 one?

[War Pig]

Originally Posted by youngblood

Close this 2014 thread and sticky the new 2015 one?

Just when it's getting good? Heck no!

I think Tin Soldier, R2J, and Badhoopty get it. Olle P not so much.

[johnnyh66]

Originally Posted by badhoopty

granted there are things that could and should be exceptions to the new person who is unaware of the little details. like not completely having half your tire under the fenderlip in c1 or something like that... those could (and are) handled on a case by case basis during tech. but to write-in a bunch of rules and penalty values for those people who arent compliant with them kinda messes with the reason there are rules to begin with.

That's exactly what I was talking about.
Every time someone new shows up to our event's (badhoopty and I are in the same club) we always let them run.

You don't grow the hobby/club by turning people away.

I would expect anyone of us RCC guys knows what's going on and should be held to the rules.

But if some dad brings his kid out and they are both running Rover's (because they read on the web that they are the best crawler tire), I'm not turning them away.

How about instead of +10 points for out of spec issues we just include a DNQ (Did Not Qualify) and let them run but can't win or place.

Most people who get a taste are hooked and will get their rig in spec by next event... assuming they feel accepted and supported.
If we say "No man, you're toy truck doesn't meet the standards of our toy trucks and you can't play with us"... then not so much.
That's why there's a bunch of noobs always trash talking SORRCA on FaceBook.
Which sure, doesn't bother us guys in the know, actually going to national level events... but it doesn't help us either.

[War Pig]

I always let new guys run whatever they have at our local comps for their first or second time. During the comp I go through their rig and let them know what's legal and what's not, and how scale points work. Plus I give them tips on what to do and what not to do in terms of performance. It's all about bringing new people into the hobby and having fun. I just let them know that at a large regional or national comp they will have to comply with all the SORRCA rules.

[johnnyh66]

that's all I'm saying...

[War Pig]

I'm not as mean as I sound