2015 scale rules discussion or question thead

[Olle P]

This "tube" vs "rod" discussion seems stupid!
The reason for using tube instead of rod during construction is simply beacuse it's better.
A tube is stiffer than a rod with the same weight.
A rod construction is inherently weaker and/or heavier than tube.

Regarding the scale rules I see no reason to not accept rod designs as "tubes" as long as they look right.
The only advantage of using rod instead of tubes on the model truck is that rod is easier to build with. For driving performance tube will always be better!

[Scrap]

Why is it such a big deal about buying shock mounts when nobody protests the buying of bumpers, sliders, roof racks, CMS mounts, interiors, divorced motor mounts, custom hard bodies etc? All those are bolted on for points. Why not the shock hoops too? Many real shock mounts are just bolted on.

Shock mounts are -1 a pair. Bumpers are -6 a pair.

But the rules are what they are. I really feel for the rule committee because you can never please all the people all the time.

[hotwheels000]

Just to clarify Will, It wasn't my rig or use of tube fenders that caused the commotion. I was on committee at that time and remember the discussions. Didn't agree with the ruling but that is how a committee works... Mine were attached just like a Jeep JK would have been, only it was on a chevy truck And as a side note, I had used the same mounting and style of tube fenders on Brutus the year before....

Originally Posted by JokersWild

See I feel the issue here is just that, you know as well as I do ,long long ago the shock hoop deal was stated as metal..... To get away from the off the shelf scx10. Then couple companies produced alum bolt on so for some odd reason we adopted the term "integrated". Now that's obviously not going to work for some and we have to go with welded tube or whatever the new term is for shock mounting........ Cool I don't see the idealistic thoughts behind it so enlighten me. Buying one of 6 frames on the market that have the hoops on the frame, machining my own frame that way or welding some tube on...... What one is not requiring the builder to not change from a stock rig? How is it not scale? How is any a driving or building advantage over the other? I saw this all with the tube fenders when those points went out........ Yes I saw the bending of the rules by dev........ Saw the advantage / points he got. Saw the issues that arose with trying to clarify it in the rules to make it work and was ok with the points going away....... Made more difficult for builder to max out the rig with less point options for build..... But was fine with it. Now this one and the knuckle weighs are both pushing towards the uber duber scale side, but with no real point....... And want to know where in it all there is an advantage to the driver in building or driving? Cause there should be .... Or there wouldnt need to be a rule about it. If I put x oz in my tire or x on the axle what's the difference in other than not buying bearings every week?

[R2j]

Originally Posted by monkeyracer

I think this is where I am a little lost as well. I thought the intention of awarding scale points was to compensate for a potential lack in capability (compared to the wild comp crawler rigs) in return for a builder doing something scale, which likely caused a performance disadvantage.
So, as JW said, I thought the rule was changed initially to prevent stock SCX10's from getting the points for plastic mounts, then VP and everyone's mom started making metal bolt on mounts, and the rule was changed to prevent someone from "buying points". However, there is no advantage to having the mounts permanently attached to the frame vs using an aftermarket option.
I'm trying to understand the intent of the rule, rather than play in the grey area, but it seems even the SC is a little blurry about the intent of the rule.
If we need the builder to bash his head into a wall to cut off these mounts and then weld them back on in the exact same spot just to get the points, then fine, I don't agree with it, but if that's the rule, so be it. Two points are easy to make up by putting some doll house crap in the bed anyway.
Also, as JRH pointed out, how would you know during tech? What if the person did cut them off, weld them back on, and ground the welds down flush and painted the frame... Could you tell the difference? If not, then why not award points to anyone running a frame with built in towers?

I understand the initial intent of the rules was to reward builders for going the extra mile to make something more scale realistic. However, with a deep pocket, you can literally "buy points" by getting a vendor to make you a chassis that ticks all the marks and maxes out scale points. There are plenty of rigs that are basically just comp rigs with a scale body on them that can get pretty close to maxing out scale points without the driver needing any fabrication skills. So, that leaves the true builders frustrated about trying to make something scale, but also compete with disguised comp rigs.

To play semantics... Weld definition:



The metal was joined by heat when the sheet was formed initially, and now forms a harmonious whole. After the molecules were welded together, someone decided the shape was just a little off, and cut it into the shape of a chassis.
This can't be said for bolt-on mounts, so why not award points for them?

Jens, I see what your saying, but the intent is to reward builders for the effort. Weather they are made from round tube, square tube, solid rod or flat plate. The material is not the issue as JJ so thinks, but how it is attached. I know you put effort into designing your chassis, however in my opinion, a person would still be buying scale points the same as a bolt on shock mount. I personally am running a ToyZuki chassis, which I knew, would not give me points for the shock mounts and I'm fine with that. Your chassis looks great, so why worry about a few points that can be found somewhere else. It's really not hard to max out any class vehicle if you build it smart.....and I don't mean by making it a Barbie doll house on wheels either.

[sam63]

So to stop the debate about welded shock mounts why don't we eliminate the points all together? Just like we did with the tube fenders.

[monkeyracer]

Originally Posted by sam63

So to stop the debate about welded shock mounts why don't we eliminate the points all together? Just like we did with the tube fenders.

There is no performance advantage or disadvantage.
With most bodied vehicles they are hidden.
With tube frames the shock mounts are going to need to be integrated anyway.

I honestly don't see a reason for the points either.

[hotwheels000]

Why not get rid of all scale points on the driving side of the compitition? People max there rigs at this point and time anyways,so we all are equal in that respect.

Save the points for the car show, that is where the rules are headed as far as I can see with all the new talk and silly pet peeve amendments that keep making it less fun for new and seasoned drivers alike.

We wont need rules before long, any body remember when rock crawlers had a huge following, learn from the past I say, or take up g6, u4, or any of the modified cone dodging events being held around the country.

JUST MY .02, Rant off

[RcBro]

Originally Posted by hotwheels000

Why not get rid of all scale points on the driving side of the compitition? People max there rigs at this point and time anyways,so we all are equal in that respect.

Save the points for the car show, that is where the rules are headed as far as I can see with all the new talk and silly pet peeve amendments that keep making it less fun for new and seasoned drivers alike.

We wont need rules before long, any body remember when rock crawlers had a huge following, learn from the past I say, or take up g6, u4, or any of the modified cone dodging events being held around the country.

JUST MY .02, Rant off

Ding ding ding

[doublej]

Originally Posted by R2j

Jens, I see what your saying, but the intent is to reward builders for the effort. Weather they are made from round tube, square tube, solid rod or flat plate. The material is not the issue as JJ so thinks, but how it is attached. I know you put effort into designing your chassis, however in my opinion, a person would still be buying scale points the same as a bolt on shock mount. I personally am running a ToyZuki chassis, which I knew, would not give me points for the shock mounts and I'm fine with that. Your chassis looks great, so why worry about a few points that can be found somewhere else. It's really not hard to max out any class vehicle if you build it smart.....and I don't mean by making it a Barbie doll house on wheels either.

My issue is different answers from different members within the SC.
Agreeing with the ruling does not matter to me - I will build, follow, and help to teach others despite my opinion.

[JokersWild]

Originally Posted by hotwheels000

Just to clarify Will, It wasn't my rig or use of tube fenders that caused the commotion. I was on committee at that time and remember the discussions. Didn't agree with the ruling but that is how a committee works... Mine were attached just like a Jeep JK would have been, only it was on a chevy truck And as a side note, I had used the same mounting and style of tube fenders on Brutus the year before....

10-4 devy...... I just saw your rig in the talks about it on here a couple times..... Figured with your toob fenders and Dick head driver you would cause a commotion lol.

I'm with you in your rant. It's getting pretty dumb in basic terms.

As for the term of " buying points" I think that term I wrongfully used quite a few times in here...... Regardless of what we do or build its buying points and still is not a stock plastic scx.....

I think ill adopt anothers term and set on this topic and "build my rig how I want and screw the rules"

[Crawl Space]

I'm going to jump in here and say that wherever there are rules, there will be grey areas, points of contention over legality, and blatant "misinterpretations" for advantage.

That being said, however, the rules are partly WHY I have decided to build a rig to compete with. Restrictions can function as a frame that, by excluding a large percentage of potential designs, can actually increase creativity in the design and building process.

I didn't get into this hobby because I wanted to replicate a 1:1 rig - I've never owned a 4x4 vehicle in my life (though that may change soon ;) I got into it because I've never been able to design, build and drive a real 4x4. This was logically the next step up for me from the LEGO Technic sets and the Tamiya trucks with which I was obsessed as a child.

What actually caught my attention in the RC crawling world was the comp crawling scene - specifically watching comp videos. Then I bought a Wraith and found the WARCRC video series and my interest shifted to scale.

Scale crawling competitions are a healthy part of this hobby, just as real comps are a healthy part of 1:1 off-roading; they draw people from various distant areas together and provide a legitimate forum for designers and retailers to interact with and advertise to hobbyists. 99% of the time scaling and wrenching is my "guy time" - the other 1% is the proverbial "champion carrot," the promise of victory that adds another facet to my motivation.

Let's please not discard rules, rather, we should continue to discuss and vote on what boundaries should be established and why. We can learn from the fallacies of the comp crawler scene and actively avoid deterring newcomers/old timers from our lovely hobby

[sf2000xj]

I want to make sure I am clear on class one. If I'm using a lexan body that originally has molded in bumpers, example proline Cherokee, can they be cut off and replaced with chassis mounted bumpers? My thought is yes but then there is the minimal trimming rule. Can someone clarify this for me?


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[Mr. LowBudget]

My pockets are so shallow they call me LowBudget I can easily build a 60 point rig with a lexan body following the rules that's capable as hell as long as I'm not driving it as, as, as

I would just like to say thanks to the Rule Committee for all the countless hours and hard work you guys put in to keep us in check You guys ROCK O ya and putting up with all the BS...

French Toast, ya Toast...

[doublej]

Originally Posted by sf2000xj

I want to make sure I am clear on class one. If I'm using a lexan body that originally has molded in bumpers, example proline Cherokee, can they be cut off and replaced with chassis mounted bumpers? My thought is yes but then there is the minimal trimming rule. Can someone clarify this for me?


Sent from my iPad using my finger

As long as the bumper fits the size requirements for class1 - yes.

[Derek108]

Can someone explain to me more about class 3 rules? When we first started doing comps we were strictly 1.9 and 2.2 classes. We had small turnouts so it was no problem but soon came these rigs that people built from the ground up. No frame rails. Body wasn't 5 inches wide. And they were putting 1.9s on them going against the scx10s and other frame rail scale trucks. People started getting aggravated with this and I completely understood why. We needed a change then. We decided to go with Sorrca rules. Now the same one or two of them don't meet the requirements of class 3. My question is how strict are others on the class 3 rules?


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[hotwheels000]

The rules are the rules, its up to the local clu s to decide if they want to strictly adhere to them or make a modification or two to adapt to the local scene. Do you want the few to have to build new rigs ? Would that in anyway harm the harmony or fun factor in the club ?

There are a bunch of things to consider, just like the SC has to consider when the rules are made.

Do whats best for your club and members. At a national level/event, the rules will be followed almost to a T. If there are exceptions the promoter will announce those exceptions right fromthe beginning.

Most important thing to consider on both levels is keeping it fun for everyone

[Derek108]

Thanks for the help. We are going to bend the rules slightly for class 3 so it will benefit everyone


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[Dad,Canyoufix?]

Question: Will the Axial Power Wagon body's bed net me any points?

Bolting on a honcho cage will get me a few, but keeping the bed because I want my truck to resemble my 1:1 forces me to give away points(as the bed isnt quite deep enough to be a drop bed)?

Also, is storing my spare like this Legal?

[War Pig]

Originally Posted by Dad,Canyoufix?

Question: Will the Axial Power Wagon body's bed net me any points?

Bolting on a honcho cage will get me a few, but keeping the bed because I want my truck to resemble my 1:1 forces me to give away points(as the bed isnt quite deep enough to be a drop bed)?

Also, is storing my spare like this Legal?

Attachment 310365

A lexan bed won't get you any points. You could try to design a drop bed that the body fits over. Add a roll bar and a spare tire carrier to get a few points?

BTW, that spare tire spot is perfectly legal as long as you can get to it.

[jwalker]

I know the rules for class 1 allows flat beds but does it mean a flat bed with no rails or can it have sides like this?