Rules, Issues and Public Concerns

[Hardline]

On the subject of judging. Since quantity of judges is a limiting factor, would this approach work? One judge per driver, but he asks/appoints one or two volunteer helpers (spotters) at each start. They have no say in the final decisions and just do what he asks. Six eyes are better than two.

[Erin]

Originally Posted by Hardline

On the subject of judging. Since quantity of judges is a limiting factor, would this approach work? One judge per driver, but he asks/appoints one or two volunteer helpers (spotters) at each start. They have no say in the final decisions and just do what he asks. Six eyes are better than two.

Consistency per driver is the problem with this.

[Hardline]

Originally Posted by Erin

Consistency per driver is the problem with this.

Same judge, same calls. Just extra eyes to see markers from other angles.

[Erin]

problem is you have different eyes per driver, I understand same judge, but if helpers vary during the course of the day, there will be contraversy, almost guaranteed. Every driver needs to be scored by the same people per course, so the playing field is as even as possible. Or at the very least all judges from the event judging pool.

Ideally there needs to be 4 judges per course, 2 per driver, 2 drivers at intervals to speed up the entire event and this is where its hard to find enough judges.

[Kratos]

Originally Posted by 4xFord

Well, to try and stay on topic to the OP and since were in the trust tree:

The rules are my secondary concern.

I just want to go to RCC homepage maybe months, and definitely weeks, before the NATIONAL CHAMPIONSHIP and see something about the event. Instead I got to keep reading about the Geadhead RC SCX10 Shock mount.

And then I get to nats. And the courses are completely different than normal courses with tough bonus gates. Instead they were courses with super simple revolving bonuses that make no sense. It was like a board game.

And I won't even go into the judging.....

And then there was the time table of everything starting hours late and ending later. I never got to eat one single dinner with friends. Where is the fun in that?

For me it's about making the events fun and efficient. Double judging, multiple classes run on the same day at the same time, and not threatening drivers with course closures.

And lastly, no more comps in BFE please. Vegas was by far the best comp I have been to. Timely ran, great city, great courses and things for a family to do. More of that style would be great.

The courses seemed to be who can go the fastest, not who can crawl the cleanest, at least thats what it seemed to me. Not taking anything away from the folks that killed it but I woulda liked to see 3 courses with revolving bonus and the other 3 with hard bonuses and only be able to hit them once. Just my thought so sorry if it pisses folks off

[Hardline]

Originally Posted by Erin

Ideally there needs to be 4 judges per course, 2 per driver, 2 drivers at intervals to speed up the entire event and this is where its hard to find enough judges.

No question your view is more "perfect" than mine. But there are trade-offs. It was just a thought trying to add possibilities.

[rock hard]

Its not to hard to get guys to judge at low stress local comps..

But of bigger cops there is some serious draw backs

1. alot of guys who may be seasoned drivers, who are familure enough with thier rules, but are not comfortable enough yet to judge higher caliber events.

2.alot of the guys who are very seasoned, and who do know the rules. dont want to judge, cuz they dont want it to take away from thier time socialising with comrades, or hurt thier perfromance when its time to crawl.

3. you have a huge portion of the crawlers who simply dont know the rules enough at all.

I have posted links on our clubs section to the judges test, hoping guys would
use this tool to lear/imporve thise skills.

In the end, I think the most successfull way to get top judges, is with a mixtrure of 3 things....

1. temptation> there has to be value, like free entry may not alwasy be enough to lure in the best judges.

2. gradafication> Judges have to enjoy what they are doing, and it cant be all work. This isnt for everyone, I love judging myself,,but it can suck if everyone is chewing your ars cuz they dont like the calls. That creats tension, and removes chances of gradafication.
Then that judge is much less likely to step up in the futur, since there is no fun in it.

3. apprechiation> I think drivers do try to show appreachiation, but we could do more.

In a perfect world I think less seasoned judges should be coupled with seasoned judges...the seasoned judge should spot, and the less seasoned judge should scribe...

If less seasoned judges know in advance they wont be on the spot making hard calls. That they just have to scribe, they may be more willing to step up to the plate.

[Erin]

Originally Posted by Hardline

No question your view is more "perfect" than mine. But there are trade-offs. It was just a thought trying to add possibilities.

Opened minded thinking is where we will all move forward, not trying to discourage you by any means

[articzap]

I pretty much single handedly judge every local comp, and try to volunteer when out of town. When I go to national events I need a break and need to focus. Not to mention, national level comps are my vacation. :-(

[jammin311]

Originally Posted by articzap

I pretty much single handedly judge every local comp, and try to volunteer when out of town. When I go to national events I need a break and need to focus. Not to mention, national level comps are my vacation. :-(

Join the crowd... National level comps are a vacation for everyone... But there are no nats without judges so someone still has to spend there vacation judging....


Judges are the hardest part about comping. The club I run is me and one other guy to set courses and to judge the rest I guilt into judging if they want to speed the day up. Luckly its not to big a problem around here most are willing to help.

I enjoy judging I also enjoy hanging out with friends at comps the 2 never go together very well.

I set courses and judged last years PCC and by the end of the weekend I was beat!!! I would do it again in a heart beat just to see all thoughs people on the rocks.


I guess my point is we all judge at some point just remember at a big comp its the judges vacation too and whould be nice to see more people step up on there vacations to help out!


sorry Art this is not a flame on you or to disrespect you. Im sure you are a stand up guy and a great judge. I just don't agree with the vacation statment. This is the attitude that makes it hard to get judges... at any level.

[articzap]

That's their choice. Ideally paid, non competing, judges are what's needed. But where are you going to find those people?

Then you have the problem of people who judge just for a free ticket and don't know half the rules, they just kept taking the judges quiz until they got a perfect score.

Too many variables.

[rock hard]

Originally Posted by jammin311

Join the crowd... National level comps are a vacation for everyone... But there are no nats without judges so someone still has to spend there vacation judging....


Judges are the hardest part about comping. The club I run is me and one other guy to set courses and to judge the rest I guilt into judging if they want to speed the day up. Luckly its not to big a problem around here most are willing to help.

I enjoy judging I also enjoy hanging out with friends at comps the 2 never go together very well.

I set courses and judged last years PCC and by the end of the weekend I was beat!!! I would do it again in a heart beat just to see all thoughs people on the rocks.


I guess my point is we all judge at some point just remember at a big comp its the judges vacation too and whould be nice to see more people step up on there vacations to help out!


sorry Art this is not a flame on you or to disrespect you. Im sure you are a stand up guy and a great judge. I just don't agree with the vacation statment. This is the attitude that makes it hard to get judges... at any level.

I know we all want judging to be consistant, and that is a reason for the same judges to me on course all day.

maybe with the judges test, consistancy will get better, and maybe if its not, we can just deal with it.

In some sports, there is no garantee you will have the same ref wacthing your actions. There is no rule that the judges must be the same.

there should be a spoter and a scribe.

If a judge could judge just 1/2 a day, then the rest of teh day is open to hang with buds, or smoke buds, or smoke buds with buds.

But you have to have more judges signed up, if we are going to share the work load, so all can enjoy all aspects of the day.

so 1st got to get em to sign up


so, no booz on course.....so I guess we can smoke a J on course in colorado now?

[HARDKNOCKZ]

WCRCC has tried to get EVERYONE involved & we're currently running what they call "round robin" judging. The comp body breaks off into groups & each group is assigned a course. The groups determine a run order. The last one to run judges the 1st & everyone else in the group spots. When the 1st driver is done, he judges the next in line. So forth & so on.

Its working OK but far from perfect. Like its been said...we need consistency in judging & the round robin format is lacking.

I personally judge as much as possible just to do my part but there ARE advantages. You get to see everyone run lines, study their setups & how they work & study the course that you're on. It can be a thankless job but I for one want comp crawling to be around long after I lose interest & the ONLY way that'll happen is if we ALL do our part.

It sucks that the same few people are always stepping up. Theres been talk about random lotteries to choose judges in our local scene & honestly...I like that idea. You sign up to comp...your name is on the list. If you get called...you judge. We'd have to implement some guidelines to make sure that those that judged comp 1 are taken outta the mix for comp 2 but it COULD work. You HAVE to help out if you wanna crawl. Period. This isn't Disneyland where your entry fee pays for all of your entertainment. I wish it was but it just isn't.

[Hardline]

Originally Posted by articzap

That's their choice. Ideally paid, non competing, judges are what's needed. But where are you going to find those people?

Then you have the problem of people who judge just for a free ticket and don't know half the rules, they just kept taking the judges quiz until they got a perfect score.

Too many variables.

Interesting post coming from someone who just said he doesn't want to participate in judging majors. You say we need more judges, but you don't want to do it and you don't trust others to do it.

Sure is easier to shoot down ideas than propose them.

[rock hard]

Originally Posted by articzap

That's their choice. Ideally paid, non competing, judges are what's needed. But where are you going to find those people?

Then you have the problem of people who judge just for a free ticket and don't know half the rules, they just kept taking the judges quiz until they got a perfect score.

Too many variables.

you need to take advantage of the guys who dont know the rules as good, but are willing to sign up, no matter if its to take the free ticket...or the experience. ( if you want more judges )

Let the less experianced voluteers be scribers at the larger venues.

The scrib really doesnt have to know the rules as good, they just have to know how to use a pen, and help spot.
and I bet you a ben franklin.....if the judges list was seperated
judges>spoters
judges>scribers
you will see some new guys volunteering to judge as a scriber, who would not feel comfortable judging as the spoter.
I wouldnt have wanted to spot that yr at nats in disney, but once we get on course, the other judge was blistered bad from teh day before.
If I had known I would have been spoting, I may not have stepped up.

[TURBOFEST]

Originally Posted by rock hard

you need to take advantage of the guys who dont know the rules as good, but are willing to sign up, no matter if its to take the free ticket...or the experience. ( if you want more judges )

Let the less experianced voluteers be scribers at the larger venues.

The scrib really doesnt have to know the rules as good, they just have to know how to use a pen, and help spot.

This is a good suggestion Paul. This will make it easier to get the number of bodies on course to cover having more courses (which makes everyone happy) while at the same time keeping the integrity needed to have successful judging. Some of the more critical competitors will have to just take some of the human errors with a grain of salt.

[JeremyH]

Originally Posted by rock hard

you need to take advantage of the guys who dont know the rules as good, but are willing to sign up

We do this at the local level as well. It used to be a bit of a chore to get new judges signed up, but we started using them as spotters and people quickly started realizing that judging helped them learn the rules better which helped them make quick informed decisions when they were on course as a driver. Now, we never have an issue with not enough judges.

[rock hard]

Originally Posted by TURBOFEST

This is a good suggestion Paul. This will make it easier to get the number of bodies on course to cover having more courses (which makes everyone happy) while at the same time keeping the integrity needed to have successful judging. Some of the more critical competitors will have to just take some of the human errors with a grain of salt.

I have noticed with scribing, the errors are not so bad.
It can be challenging to keep up with penalties during a run ( especially if its happening fast )
You have to make sure to put penalties in the right spot ( easy to use score card a plus )
But mainly it sux when you think you stoped time ( or started it ) and look down and you didint... ( I think spoters and scribes should both keep time )
This happens....and we all know it, but we do our best to be fair to the driver when it does happen.

But if both judges keep time ( IMO spoter should be main time keeper --cuz they are closer to teh action ) then there is alwasy a backup clock.

[articzap]

Originally Posted by Hardline

Interesting post coming from someone who just said he doesn't want to participate in judging majors. You say we need more judges, but you don't want to do it and you don't trust others to do it.

Sure is easier to shoot down ideas than propose them.

It's a lot easier then you think to fix the trust issue. More questions so one cannot just retake the test putting in the correct answers from the previous time. Well they could, but it would take a ton longer to do it.

I've been called for reverses while I was upside down before. Hmm yeah, my trust has went down after that happened. Regardless, there needs to be a different way to test those who want to judge a national level event.

[rock hard]

Originally Posted by articzap

It's a lot easier then you think to fix the trust issue. More questions so one cannot just retake the test putting in the correct answers from the previous time. Well they could, but it would take a ton longer to do it.

I've been called for reverses while I was upside down before. Hmm yeah, my trust has went down after that happened. Regardless, there needs to be a different way to test those who want to judge a national level event.

it was probably me