Rules, Issues and Public Concerns

[rock hard]

Originally Posted by team3six

Boy, that wasnt hard to throw this thread off track. Exactly what I wanted to proove. No wonder things dont get resolved. the original topic goes right out the door.

And Josh. I was making it up. Pure chance that I guessed that. it was just to get Rickies goat.

I dont think yoy threw anything off track....so if that was your goal.....sorry you failed.

you simpley broke the monotney for a bit,

but so have others in this thread, and they was able to do it with a much more harmonious outcome.

and besides, these threads is not where issues like this gets resolved.....that job is for the rules commitee
this is where we the public make our opinions known and generally b.s. on the topic or topics thats simulare or relevant to the general topic.

[RcBro]

Originally Posted by Fishmaxx

Why do you think the Rules Committee gets the blame for complicated and anti-fun rules when 90% of the reason the Rules grew from 1 pages to 8 in because of something some driver did then used its not in the rules as justification.

For 6 years every one knew what a body was now it seems we have to define that it...because its not in the rules.

I agree we need more public input in how the rules get decided, but IMO that's not going to make the rules less complicated. Only people not trying bend them will do that.

Fish, you clearly understand the issues and clearly want to address them. The question is how, and you asked for examples. I think what we have had going is slightly working and just needs a shot (insert your favorite energy drink) to get the juices flowing again.

As you mentioned the public input is needed. When an issue is brought up that seems valid, such as the bodiless vs. bodied dimensions it should be made really simple. As you mentioned via a poll with no replies allowed, simply vote.

Example:
Do you think its fair bodied dimensions are larger then that of a bodiless?

Poll: Yes or No

Clearly if 75% or more say no, then it is up to the voting committee at this point to fix the issue however they see fit. The committee should be in that seat because of prerequisites that need met to be there. If that's the case, those X number of people are clearly qualified enough to hash out the issue for the benefit of the crawling community.

Beyond that, all the BS in the forums about people wanting it this way or that is simply that; BS. At the end of the day, its the committee that decides whats best, once that is done its the rules we all will crawl by.

However the committee should still watch the forums and listen to the people for possibly issues that are arising. We that aren't on the committee also need to communicate our issues to the committee. These new "issues" or "Rules" should be considered for the next season and not the current one in session if its proven to effect to many issues at once. (again to be decided by committee)

The key is, once an issue is being talked about, let the public know. A simple statement of "The committee is currently addressing the body vs bodiless measurements and are considering options, please contact a committee member to express your feelings and concerns."

This would be perfect for the new website which has been mentioned.

Originally Posted by krawlfreak

here is where we dissagree.
i believe the most simple way to handle it is not making more rules to limit people, but to define minimums that are not open to interpretation.

The underlined statement is one of the key issues. Now that the committee knows, it can be addressed.

Originally Posted by rock hard

when deciding such things....I think it should be made by the community ( through its reps ) with the interest of the community at heart.....not commercial vendors....( just my opinion )

Ding Ding Ding. As mentioned, as long as the committee makes the final decision, regardless of the outcome, a true competitor will respect the decision so long as we feel the committee members deserve to be there.

Originally Posted by Nabil

I can keep going, but i figured that was enough. Both of my examples are based on current rules and how they are currently being used by alot of competitors. There is always going to be a way to exploit the rules and someone will always find it.

The last sentence is spot on, which is why we need to not panic about change and embrace it as helping the hobby.Way to often people go into a wide spread panic about issues that become apparent after some find the loop hole. If it is an issue, we exposed the issue and proved it needs fix, assuming the committee does it job, it will get fixed.

Keeping in mind decision don't happen over night, especially with all the new issues arose. The committee needs time to make the most educated decisions possible for our sport.

If your not on the committee, do your job and inform a committee member of the issues you have or are seeing. Don't know how to do that? Stay tuned, fish is working on the fix! In the mean time, go build something, clean some gears or practice on some rocks 

Originally Posted by rock hard

now is when the process rcc already has in place will work...

The rules commitee has tackled problems before......rulels have changed before.....we all still go comp each month.....

The commitee just needs to work for the drivers, and we need to give them time to do so.

Originally Posted by C*H*U*D

I thought this was the original concern regarding this thread....it seems to have turned back into another bodiless legality debate. This is why it's so hard to keep track of what's going...we have the same discussions going on in multiple threads.

Good Point! Sometimes we are the problems that create the problems. Alot of us need to sit back and enjoy the ride. Do your part and things will work out.

Originally Posted by Fishmaxx

Working on getting a simple website that will list all the information in 1 place.

Just facts, information and who to contact.

A majority of this post was to get that accomplished. I appreciate the work thus far and working on getting things in the right direction. I think you'll be amazed at how well this will help things.

Originally Posted by team3six

Boy, that wasnt hard to throw this thread off track. Exactly what I wanted to proove. No wonder things dont get resolved. the original topic goes right out the door.

Norm, I'm sorry but regarding your most recent posts in this thread I just don't feel your helping the situation any. Please go back to my first post (the one that started this thread) and read this sentence for me " I stress discuss because we are adults and can have constructive conversations. "

Purposely trying to throw off a thread for your own amusement or in an attempt to prove a point that isn't needed is IMO childish and not needed. I'm sure you'll follow with a post saying that wasnt your intentions, but I know first hand if it was directed towards you the reactions would be the same. Sometimes alittle poison won't hurt a plant, but the last drop will. There's no need to be that last drop.... So I encourage you to think whether your post is helping the situation or just adding to the pot of bs we've been cooking on the forums lately.

[4xFord]

Well, to try and stay on topic to the OP and since were in the trust tree:

The rules are my secondary concern.

I just want to go to RCC homepage maybe months, and definitely weeks, before the NATIONAL CHAMPIONSHIP and see something about the event. Instead I got to keep reading about the Geadhead RC SCX10 Shock mount.

And then I get to nats. And the courses are completely different than normal courses with tough bonus gates. Instead they were courses with super simple revolving bonuses that make no sense. It was like a board game.

And I won't even go into the judging.....

And then there was the time table of everything starting hours late and ending later. I never got to eat one single dinner with friends. Where is the fun in that?

For me it's about making the events fun and efficient. Double judging, multiple classes run on the same day at the same time, and not threatening drivers with course closures.

And lastly, no more comps in BFE please. Vegas was by far the best comp I have been to. Timely ran, great city, great courses and things for a family to do. More of that style would be great.

[4xFord]

Originally Posted by team3six

Fish, what I was saying is
There are approved and unapproved designs in NASCAR for running Bodies.

If someone say you can only use these bodies snd only cut them here and must be mounted like so.
Sounds like you just defined the body.

Laws! Not rules.
Its either this or your out

Build new rules for the future structure of comp crawling.

Ok I just have to go there. The only creativity in NASCAR is sticker placement. Please don't ever compare our sport to NASCAR or any other hyper regulated sport.

Where do you get your frame of reference from? do you compete? I've never seen you at a national event but you posted more opinions of our sport in this thread than anyone else. You didn't even know about the state rules until JeremyH posted about them. Please let the people with vested interests and full understanding of the state of the sport address this.

[The Violator]

Originally Posted by 4xford

well, to try and stay on topic to the op and since were in the trust tree:

The rules are my secondary concern.

I just want to go to rcc homepage maybe months, and definitely weeks, before the national championship and see something about the event. Instead i got to keep reading about the geadgear rc scx10 shock mount.

And then i get to nats. And the courses are completely different than normal courses with tough bonus gates. Instead they were courses with super simple revolving bonuses that make no sense. It was like a board game.

And i won't even go into the judging.....

And then there was the time table of everything starting hours late and ending later. I never got to eat one single dinner with friends. Where is the fun in that?

For me it's about making the events fun and efficient. Double judging, multiple classes run on the same day at the same time, and not threatening drivers with course closures.

And lastly, no more comps in bfe please. Vegas was by far the best comp i have been to. Timely ran, great city, great courses and things for a family to do. More of that style would be great.

qft.

[The Violator]

Nationals should always be held within an hour ( 2 on a push) drive of a MAJOR airport. I know it limits venues, but it really makes it easy for participants.

With the abundance of talent at most national events, the courses should NEVER ever ever ever be courses that have been comped on before ( who wants to run on known lines where locals have a huge advantage).

There should be a pool of Course Marshall's approved by USRCCA ( active comping members of the rules committee would be a great start to that list) and if they are in attendance at a major event, they should always have a final say even over the promoter. It keeps things even comp to comp, and eliminates the BS that has gone on on in the past.

I for one like the time limits and course closures if people are not getting courses run. BUT, they need to have staff to run it, and get started on time. 2 judges per course is really the minimum, and set the number of courses by the number of judges. If a competitor cannot get half the courses run by lunch time, then they have an issue and should not make all the judges wait around at the end of the day because they wanted to watch the courses for 4 hours before they run.

[chad30w]

Originally Posted by 4xFord

Well, to try and stay on topic to the OP and since were in the trust tree:

The rules are my secondary concern.

I just want to go to RCC homepage maybe months, and definitely weeks, before the NATIONAL CHAMPIONSHIP and see something about the event. Instead I got to keep reading about the Geadgear RC SCX10 Shock mount.

And then I get to nats. And the courses are completely different than normal courses with tough bonus gates. Instead they were courses with super simple revolving bonuses that make no sense. It was like a board game.

And I won't even go into the judging.....

And then there was the time table of everything starting hours late and ending later. I never got to eat one single dinner with friends. Where is the fun in that?

For me it's about making the events fun and efficient. Double judging, multiple classes run on the same day at the same time, and not threatening drivers with course closures.

And lastly, no more comps in BFE please. Vegas was by far the best comp I have been to. Timely ran, great city, great courses and things for a family to do. More of that style would be great.

I agree totally Shelby, on all aspects of your post.

[BC-Brian]

Originally Posted by 4xFord

Vegas was by far the best comp I have been to. Timely ran, great city, great courses and things for a family to do. More of that style would be great.

I had a great time competing in Vegas, and look forward to other events like this one. Considered making the trip to Alabama Nat's with others from our club but heard there would only be a couple spots from the LCQ
(Missed the invite by one gate )

[EGRESSor]

Originally Posted by rock hard

if you look at rules #2.1.5
itt says it must be compete frame right?
but it also say the "roof" must be raised a MIN. of 1" from >main chassis <
( what is the main chassis ? this is left to perception )

the roof of bc's truck is not the mian chassis IMO ( perception )

it says a complete frame , not a one piece frame
so it can build as a main frame (chassis) + top frame (roll cage)
or so ?

Originally Posted by rock hard

rule #2.1.5.1.7

says what all can be used to get to your total measurments, notice it does not limit you to a complete frame to get to the required meassurement
roof is also allowed,,,,,in bc's truck. the lexan cab is the roof
tottally legit

now, rulle 2.1.5.1.7 makes it clear IMO ( perception ) that the min deminsions encompase many things other than the
( main chassis ) IMO

rule #2.1.5.1.1 Hood, roof and side panels must be separate pieces of solid material installed onto the bodiless vehicle frame

so let me ask again
is his cap a frame ?

Originally Posted by krawlfreak

my personal perception is "its not for me"

but my extremely good knowledge of the rules says it is legal.



there is a rigid frame mounted to his cab

i know it Jeremy
but is BC´s cap , where all his panels are mounted , a frame ?

[Dr.Frank]

Let my say a few words as a non US driver and builder. I know how
difficult it is to be in a committee ( i was a member in the german
GRCCA committee for a while). Some people say you have to overtake
the US rules by 100%, others say let do it a bit flexible. Let me
count one example. Tech rules say WB is limit to 12.5" max, that's
317mm. The german rules say 320mm max., due to the metric
system we use in Europe. 3mm aren't much, but when the Texh
judge says no, the driver has to fix it, when he says yes, the driver
is happy, some others won't. What i want to say is, keep in mind
that the people how inside the committee do their work for free
and inside their freetime. They allways (okay, mostly) listen well
to the public, but have to make rules inside of a small group.

So the made rules are one side and the "how to apply" is the other side.
There will allways be some people which are looking for holes
and expandable rubber bands inside the rules. But in the end the
tech judge made the final decission if a car fits, or not.

You can make a 100 page rulebook, or only one page, it won't
change a thing.

Just my 2 (Euro) cents.

Greetings Frank

[team3six]

Originally Posted by 4xFord

Ok I just have to go there. The only creativity in NASCAR is sticker placement. Please don't ever compare our sport to NASCAR or any other hyper regulated sport.

Where do you get your frame of reference from? do you compete? I've never seen you at a national event but you posted more opinions of our sport in this thread than anyone else. You didn't even know about the state rules until JeremyH posted about them. Please let the people with vested interests and full understanding of the state of the sport address this.

And there is the attitude I wanted.
So you feel because I havent come to a National event that I am not allowed to discuss how I feel about the rules. Yet I have guys who have never been to a national event for scale who want to run the event or want to change SORRCA rules?

I dont think it matters what my involvement or vested interest is for me to be pro active. But it is exactly that conceded asshole attitude like yours that keeps most people from wanting to compete in Comp Crawling.
Maybe you should be a little more pro active.

My QUESTION had you read it correctly, was doesnt NASCAR regulate Bodies, chassis, ect.
Do they not put limits on them by saying you can ONLY use these?

Maybe if you would if taken the time Mr. trustyree to read why I have an involvement you would understand it.

And yes, I have been to a Nationals twice. Thanks for asking!

[binaryterror]

Originally Posted by The Violator

So it meets the rules, and because you do not like it we should have 10 new rules to define the old rules.

Or you could just eliminate the debate all together with one minimum size requirement and if it meets the size it runs. Who care what it looks like.

See you are only seeing one side, and saying you have the only solution. You think either change rules my way (to make a better ruling on definitions to seal up the rule and keep 2 points of tech measurement) is somehow different than combining both measurements. Both take time to make the changes too, and review to remove loopholes.

I never said either was 100% the best...which is probably unlike many I'm willing to let the rules committee handle it.

Originally Posted by krawlfreak

my personal perception is "its not for me"

but my extremely good knowledge of the rules says it is legal.

there is a rigid frame mounted to his cab

Knowledge? Its your perception of the rule. If it was clear fact without any issues these posts wouldn't be here and we wouldn't be talking about any of this.

so someone outsmarted everyone else and you want to shut him down?

Happens all the world over, all rule books have to be edited from time to time. Rules are sought to be used to find loopholes then the rules change. Look at any form of racing, this is a constant with technology. Sometimes the new item is allowed, other times its banned. I have no problems with reviewing rules based on technology.

Originally Posted by 4xFord

And then I get to nats. And the courses are completely different than normal courses with tough bonus gates. Instead they were courses with super simple revolving bonuses that make no sense. It was like a board game.

I couldn't agree more, this recent push for revolving and bonus land and all that make our sport harder to follow and compete. Some courses had more bonus points than total progression points, I believe a few courses you could finish with a 39 and with bonus's still be negative for the day.

It's hard enough at our comps to explain to people stopping by to watch, having to explain why a driver is all over instead of in a logic course pattern makes it seem overly complicated.

[team3six]

You know, I am really pissed off right now. It is absolutly amazing as to why these threads always get off track and why your part of the hobby pushes people away. You guys are so blind, you cant even see past the blinders you wear.
Crist as long as Ricky likes the fawking post it must be alright.

You guys can sit on your protective little throwns and play the game all you want. But until you learn that this castle you keep building is about to topple. if you dont reinforce it, you'll be spending years and years to repair it.

I got mad respect for Fish on this crap now, I didnt realize what a bunch of dicks he had to fight with to try and do the right thing. And what really gets me is, over half of you will walk away when this caves in or Fish throws in the towel and blame everyone but yourselves for it failing.

I am seriously unsubscribing, seriously done investing time in this, and seriously done with the USRCCA debates.
this is a wet cat drowning in mud.

Sorry guys who have P.M.ed me to stay, I cant help you.
Good luck

[JeremyH]

Originally Posted by team3six

And there is the attitude I wanted.
So you feel because I havent come to a National event that I am not allowed to discuss how I feel about the rules. Yet I have guys who have never been to a national event for scale who want to run the event or want to change SORRCA rules?

The rules are for everyone....from people who only compete in local events, all the way up to the national champ.

People are just sick and tired of your argumentative posts and negative attitude on this subject and in this thread. You are NOT helping this situation here.

[rock hard]

Originally Posted by EGRESSor

it says a complete frame , not a one piece frame
so it can build as a main frame (chassis) + top frame (roll cage)
or so ?

the best argument is that the 1" is for roof frame, but unfortunatly, it says
frame "sides" and in the same rule, referes to sides, and roof seperatly.

There is no clear wording in that rule, that says the raised portion of the roof, must be made of a frame. and even so, there is no mention as to what is clasified as a frame ( look at john holmes post on the motox frame )






rule #2.1.5.1.1 Hood, roof and side panels must be separate pieces of solid material installed onto the bodiless vehicle frame

so let me ask again
is his cap a frame ?

His roof "cab" is one piece, with "seperate" hood, roof and side panels attached.

his roof panel is not the cab, his hood is not the cab......his lexan cab iis his cab..

The rule 2.1.5.1.7 lleaves it open for many things to be used to get your overall deminsion......notice the ONLY things that can not be "exagerated" to meet your deminsions are your hood, roof, and side panels.

The cabs are "always" raised enough to meet hight requirments, as does his cab.
and as stated earlier, by john, there is no "wording" in the rules, no matter how bad some may wish there to be.....anythin to prevent this cab from being legal.



i know it Jeremy
but is BC´s cap , where all his panels are mounted , a frame ?

It doesnt have to be a frame, the raised roof is alloowed to seperat from main chassis ( frame )


I want to add to this.....or clarify
the cockpit is described ar seperate from frame in the rule....I keep using the "word" cab, but its actually a cockpit


rule #2.1.5
( the cockpit and frame sides are to be measured vertically from where the hood intersects the cab )


we already know the roof must be raised from main chassis to reseble a cockpit.

The main chassis is the only thing that must be a frame, nothing say sthe cockpit or cab must be a part of the main chassis, as it is to be raised from the "main chassis" and the only thing that must be frammed, is the main chassis.

now the rule you bring up does clearly state that the hood, roof and side "panels" must be mounted to the bodiless frame.
and one could argue that is a clarafication of the rules prior, that the cockpit must be framed.

But
1.I can argue against, saying your rule is refering to "panels" and how they mount only......
and then the lexan cab is legit, so long as the hood, roof, and side panels are stll attched to teh fram, and not the cab,

2. you could say the same thing holmes did about what can be used as a frame, and call the lexan cab/cockpiit a part of teh fram.
the reason you can do this is simple....the rule you use does NOT say frame "railes" just frame...anything that bolts together can be a frame.


PERCEPTION
it seems alot of people think a bodiless must be made with frame rails,,,,rails,,,,rails,,,rails..
rails are not mentioned except in rule 2.1.5.1.7, and that is to determin what sallowed to be used in measurments.

No where does it say the chassis MUST have frame rails

You could take a unibody, cut into 2 pieces, bolt back together ( would be easier to work on IMI ) and walla...yo have a bodiless, just bolt on some panels and your good to go......and no rails..

you could make your unibody out of lexan before you cut in into 2 pieces and have a full llexan bodiless.

You could use a piece of 1"x1"x1" square tubing ( sides must be 1" ) and let that be your "mian chassis"
and let bumbers, siide rails and cockpit get you to your min deminsions...... and moroe importantly, you can use whatever material you want to, so long as its rigid.........

the sss and then the links are a part of teh chassis and you dont have to worry about length....or maybe hight even..... cuz the lower links are a part of teh main chassis they would be used as measurments....

and actually, it says in the rules that nut, bolts cant be used, but no mention of links ( this is something our common sense made us assume ) maybe cuz its "bolten" onto the main chassis......but the sss thats not the case.


see, there is ALOT of things the rules DONT forbid.....IMO this is to allow at lease SOME imagination and creativity...

then when someone does it, so many are prones to pounce and call it illegal...

maybe cuz its someting they have never seem before...

maybe cuz they dont like where they feel it will take the sport...

maybe cuz the rules dont say what they thought they did.

but just the same, creativity is allowed, we just lose some sight of our creativity and what the rules allow, cuz really......how long has it been since most of us have actually created anything,,,,,we just buy bolt ons....

My 1st chassis was in 08, 2nd in 2010.....both sucked
but in my 2nd chassis I was looking very much outside the "percieved" box



and fish, ome thing that has always sucked about the rules..........I cant ever seem to copy and past from that doc.....

[krawlfreak]

Originally Posted by team3six

I am seriously unsubscribing, seriously done investing time in this, and seriously done with the USRCCA debates.
this is a wet cat drowning in mud.

this is the best thing i have heard yet!

you are only adding to the problem with your bad attitude, the insults and topic derailing.
go cool off and build a scaler!

[rock hard]

Originally Posted by team3six

You know, I am really pissed off right now. It is absolutly amazing as to why these threads always get off track and why your part of the hobby pushes people away. You guys are so blind, you cant even see past the blinders you wear.
Crist as long as Ricky likes the fawking post it must be alright.

You guys can sit on your protective little throwns and play the game all you want. But until you learn that this castle you keep building is about to topple. if you dont reinforce it, you'll be spending years and years to repair it.

I got mad respect for Fish on this crap now, I didnt realize what a bunch of dicks he had to fight with to try and do the right thing. And what really gets me is, over half of you will walk away when this caves in or Fish throws in the towel and blame everyone but yourselves for it failing.

I am seriously unsubscribing, seriously done investing time in this, and seriously done with the USRCCA debates.
this is a wet cat drowning in mud.

Sorry guys who have P.M.ed me to stay, I cant help you.
Good luck

bye

[TURBOFEST]

Originally Posted by team3six

I am seriously unsubscribing, seriously done investing time in this, and seriously done with the USRCCA debates.

[HARDKNOCKZ]

Originally Posted by team3six

You know, I am really pissed off right now. It is absolutly amazing as to why these threads always get off track and why your part of the hobby pushes people away. You guys are so blind, you cant even see past the blinders you wear.
Crist as long as Ricky likes the fawking post it must be alright.

You guys can sit on your protective little throwns and play the game all you want. But until you learn that this castle you keep building is about to topple. if you dont reinforce it, you'll be spending years and years to repair it.

I got mad respect for Fish on this crap now, I didnt realize what a bunch of dicks he had to fight with to try and do the right thing. And what really gets me is, over half of you will walk away when this caves in or Fish throws in the towel and blame everyone but yourselves for it failing.

I am seriously unsubscribing, seriously done investing time in this, and seriously done with the USRCCA debates.
this is a wet cat drowning in mud.

Sorry guys who have P.M.ed me to stay, I cant help you.
Good luck

Norm...you had some good, valid points in the beginning but your "I know how to save this...LISTEN TO ME" stomping on the ground attitude that evolved discredited ANYTHING you had to say.

Whether you believe this or not...you DO NOT have ALL the answers. You ARE NOT on the USRCCA Rules Committee & have ZERO idea what goes on in that forum. We ARE NOT the SORCCA Rules Committe.

It sucks to see you crumble into the tantrum throwing child that you did because you DID have something to contribute.

Originally Posted by JeremyH

The rules are for everyone....from people who only compete in local events, all the way up to the national champ.

People are just sick and tired of your argumentative posts and negative attitude on this subject and in this thread. You are NOT helping this situation here.

[Fishmaxx]

Originally Posted by 4xFord

I just want to go to RCC homepage maybe months, and definitely weeks, before the NATIONAL CHAMPIONSHIP and see something about the event. Instead I got to keep reading about the Geadhead RC SCX10 Shock mount.


And then I get to nats. And the courses are completely different than normal courses with tough bonus gates. Instead they were courses with super simple revolving bonuses that make no sense. It was like a board game.

And I won't even go into the judging.....

And then there was the time table of everything starting hours late and ending later. I never got to eat one single dinner with friends. Where is the fun in that?

For me it's about making the events fun and efficient. Double judging, multiple classes run on the same day at the same time, and not threatening drivers with course closures.

And lastly, no more comps in BFE please. Vegas was by far the best comp I have been to. Timely ran, great city, great courses and things for a family to do. More of that style would be great.

Originally Posted by The Violator

Nationals should always be held within an hour ( 2 on a push) drive of a MAJOR airport. I know it limits venues, but it really makes it easy for participants.

With the abundance of talent at most national events, the courses should NEVER ever ever ever be courses that have been comped on before ( who wants to run on known lines where locals have a huge advantage).

There should be a pool of Course Marshall's approved by USRCCA ( active comping members of the rules committee would be a great start to that list) and if they are in attendance at a major event, they should always have a final say even over the promoter. It keeps things even comp to comp, and eliminates the BS that has gone on on in the past.

I for one like the time limits and course closures if people are not getting courses run. BUT, they need to have staff to run it, and get started on time. 2 judges per course is really the minimum, and set the number of courses by the number of judges. If a competitor cannot get half the courses run by lunch time, then they have an issue and should not make all the judges wait around at the end of the day because they wanted to watch the courses for 4 hours before they run.

Shelby and Ted,

This is an attempt to address your concerns NOT argue with you


Start times at 2012 Nationals I was on the mountain almost 2 hours before sunrise. There were a few jobs that were delegated to other people that did not execute their job. In running big events you have to delegate certain tasks if those tasks are not handled there are complications.
I believe we worked through those complications. Sorry for your wait.

Course Closures Didn't happen, and in fact all course were opened 30- 1 hour past the last diver going through. As a driver I was also annoyed by "courses are closing in 5 min", and I never made that threat.
Yes I have treated to close courses but never with in 5 min of in activity, usually I walk around tell guys NOT in line.....Course 2 is open with no waiting for at least 30 minutes before even talking about course closures. Does it SUCK to do that......ABSOLUTELY! I would rather be watching drivers drive than watching them hanging around.

Open for suggestions on how you would manage event flow, better yet volunteer to over see it on comp day.



Comp Locations The vision that Nationals comp spots should be virgin rock with in 1-2 hours of a major airport sound great, but in my opinion unrealistic. Its also never happen before. I personally crawled at every location BEFORE they were Nationals spots except for ironically BFE in Utah. Vegas was the ONLY spot that was local to a Major airport.

The Vegas location selected was was less than perfect. Lone Mountain was very dangerous in my opinion, and in fact it was the last choice for Jason (spent several days scouting), but was the only spot he was able secure written permission.

Anyone willing HELP research new locations and get involved with the application and acquisition. I will be glad to accept your help. This is definitely an area which if you are unsatisfied with previous locations you can step up and take the bull by the horn. Its not good enough to say "Moab was cool lets go back there." We need someone to do the local legwork not lip service. If you guys put everything on one person....you get one person results.

FYI 2013 is the west coasts turn, so lets focus on that area for now.

2012 Course Format Admittedly it needs a little tweaking, but that format was used on 2x course at the Copper State championships thats where I got the idea and everybody seemed to love it. We tested multiple times locally and received almost 100% positive reviews. Yoshi had never seen the rocks, witness the format, and English was not his first language and he picked up in 2 seconds. I think its format worth developing further.


Judging I sure you have heard it before.....if you don't like the judging step up and be part of the solution instead of bitching about the problem. Obviously you guys could volunteer to judge, but I am going to challenge to take it a step further. Get involved in the actual judge training/recruiting process.

SDS recruited all the judges for Vegas Nationals and used a new judging system that moved drivers rapidly through the course. Worked great as far as getting judges through the courses and to the casinos and buffets but lacked alot in overall quality. In no way is that a slam against SDS and the judges, but I think its universally accepted that 1 judge per driver is not ideal because call are missed while a writing, and its almost impossible to watch both sides of the truck at the same time.

For 2012 Nationals I would have loved to adopt that system, but in order to run 6x courses I needed 24 judges because I insisted on 2 judges per driver. I was only able to recruit 16.

There is the same issues with running multiple classes at the same time. Find the judges and the world of possibilities opens up.

Anyone that wants to handle Judge recruiting for 2013 Nationals go for it. The only thing I require is 2 per driver. The who, how, when, and how much you have the freedom to do it. Good Luck


You guys had some valuable input and others seem to like it, and that's great. Even better I am giving anyone of you a chance to fix 90% of your concerns. How is that for giving the people in a say what happens