Rules, Issues and Public Concerns

[JeremyH]

Originally Posted by articzap

There is zero way to setup a system of checks and balances so the judges only get paid if they properly do their job.

I agree. That is why having them take the test to verify their knowledge of the rules is the best you can get. After that, it is up to the competitors to challenge any questionable call. Same as if the judge was doing the job for free....

[ittybitty]

Originally Posted by JeremyH

My entry fees for Nats a few months ago was pushing $300....certainly some of those fees went "unused" somewhere....

On this topic...just a quick run down on numbers. If you were to figure average ticket purchases per driver at this years Nats I'd assume you'd come out somewhere around $100 per driver...and with around 100 drivers...you do the math

Just food for thought...

[The Violator]

Originally Posted by JeremyH

I agree. That is why having them take the test to verify their knowledge of the rules is the best you can get. After that, it is up to the competitors to challenge any questionable call. Same as if the judge was doing the job for free....

Unless comps start adding a judging fee to every drivers entry, judges are going to have to live with free entry, and hopefully a subway foot long.

100 entries at $10 judging fee puts $83 in the pocket of 12 judges on 6 courses. Split it with another 3 marshals and your down to $66. For 10 hours of arguing with drivers ( and getting thanked, can't forget the nice ones) , running up and down a slippery hill, and then at the end of the day running your (beat down) courses possibly with flash lights I am not sure the money will push many people over the edge to judge. Most do it because the want to help out the sport ( although the free entry and sandwich don't hurt).

[rock hard]

Originally Posted by articzap

But you can't just tell someone they're gonna get $xxx. Then they'll do it just for the money and not care about the outcome.

There is zero way to setup a system of checks and balances so the judges only get paid if they properly do their job.

I dont know if that is true....or not.

I think at nats this yr fish was giving free entry into the class the was judging, unless they wasnt driving in that class....then he was paying as I remember.

so if a 2.2pro driver judged 2.2s and 2.2pro...he came out on top.

That being sais, judges are allready getting compensated in one way or another now for thier time and effort.

all we are talking about is increasing the compensation in some situations to get better judges or more judges willing to commit.

Saying that a person who is qualified to judge, will not do as good a job just cuz they are doing it for the compensation is a huge ( and IMO unsubstanciated ) assumption.

Guys who are stand up honest and know the rules,,,,,are standup and honest and know the rules no matter why the decide to judge.

[crash]

I am a committee member so you can hate me .

I don't get into these threads because of the BS thats associated with it plus my time is better spent helping/working with the committee with the issues at hand.

I will say this I am very passionate about this sport/hobby and have done and will continue to do what I can to help it along .

Carry on...

[ROLANDROCKSHOP]

Just an idear..

at nationals/qualifiers have someone video each run..
if an issue comes up review video.. REPLAY!!

im shure someone could be compensated by free entry into a class or 2
for said services.

[Dr.Frank]

Originally Posted by ROLANDROCKSHOP

Just an idear..

at nationals/qualifiers have someone video each run..
if an issue comes up review video.. REPLAY!!

im shure someone could be compensated by free entry into a class or 2
for said services.

Video evidence, cool idea for a "Hobby" with toy cars. Who will do serious judging with the axe of video evidence inside his neck. Judges are human and make mistakes, even when they have to judge over a long time a day. Please don't tell me that a video will help a judge

Greetings Frank

[BC-Brian]

Originally Posted by Dr.Frank

Video evidence, cool idea for a "Hobby" with toy cars. Who will do serious judging with the axe of video evidence inside his neck. Judges are human and make mistakes, even when they have to judge over a long time a day. Please don't tell me that a video will help a judge

Greetings Frank

Watch what happens to the event pace when every driver demands a vidoe review for a call they di nt agree with. "No way was that a reverse, go look"

[ROLANDROCKSHOP]

if they dont wanna have to keep reviewing video maybe theyd make better calls..??

like i said it was just an idea...

[rock hard]

anything that is judged will be critisised.....eventually/periodically.

look at gymastics, ice skating, football, drifting, ect.

the judges see things the audiance doesnt and vice versa.

You get the best guys available to step and.....and be thankfull they did.

at the end of the day, so long as they are honest, and consistant, it doesnt matter.

[chad30w]

Or people could just drive these damn toy trucks and move on.......I mean come on, for a new person looking in on this it looks like no one can get along and we are being compared to roar in some instances dang that's bad. I know what a body should look like or not but I'm not gonna raise a stink if I saw. A certain truck out there. Is it gonna be better than others out there maybe maybe not, but to me it's not worth the hassle. As far as judging goes they are human we see how many different opinions we have on what a body is , gonna be atleast that many diff emcees in opinions on some calls it is what it is

[RcBro]

Good to see this thread get blown 13 directions just like the others. I made this post to try to get a better understanding as to what the committee does and why we as participants are not filled in.

It has yet again turned into a "my opinion is better then your debate" hence why I think a closed poll is best. Keeps everyones opinions to themselves and those band wagon voters from joining the train.

If you have an issue with judging, bodies, or events a new thread should have been made to talk about that subject. Now we got 10 pages of lost information yet again and looks like ravaging girls.

All the issues are there, but our execution is severely lacking. The series isn't the only issue, we as competitors are a majority of it.

[Nova's Ark]

Maybe we are all looking at the judging issue from the wrong perspective or angle. Anytime you have one human judging another, at some point in time, their will be a disagreement or discrepancy. It's just the facts of life and we are all humans.

Maybe we should reconsider rules and possibly formats that rely heavily on human judging?

For example, the 5 point rollover penalty was fairly simple to understand 5 years ago. But as issues arose (a competitor rolling over & changing the intended line direction by shifting the truck during the roll over) more definition had to be added to the rules. The rules committee had to define the roll over & procedure. In doing so more responsibility & power was put in the hands of a human judge.

What if the current roll over was removed in favor of an automatic reposition to the last gate cleared?

I am not advocating anything specifically and I use the roll over as a simple example. I am wondering what changes are going to bring the best results. There has been a lot of good discussion in this thread about a number of issues and possible fixes. I'd like to see that continue. The USRCCA and it's Rules Committee are in here reading and responding. Positive discussions will deliver positive results. Let's keep that in mind as we discuss

[Hardline]

I know Eddie wasn't focusing on specifics, but why not?

People will be reluctant to do away with legal roll-overs. As an alternative, how about only the judge touches the car during a legal roll-over? Driver gets to choose left or right, judge tries that and if it isn't stable, converts to a repo.

Perhaps the repo rule has a problem too. Vehicle is to be placed with rear axle aligned to gate. If aligned means axle is along a line between the markers, I don't see anyone doing that. They stick a rear tire between the markers and call it good. And argue the meaning of "aligned". The valid part of their argument is the vehicle axle was not aligned with the gate when they first progressed it, and they should be able to resume their prior line.

I'd also like to see something done about flying over the markers. Maybe one tire must touch ground anywhere between the markers. Flying over the markers causes more "did so, did not" than anything else in our comps.

I mention all of these because they put a hardship on the judge...which I believe was Eddie's point.

[JeremyH]

Originally Posted by Hardline

Perhaps the repo rule has a problem too. Vehicle is to be placed with rear axle aligned to gate. If aligned means axle is along a line between the markers, I don't see anyone doing that. They stick a rear tire between the markers and call it good. And argue the meaning of "aligned". The valid part of their argument is the vehicle axle was not aligned with the gate when they first progressed it, and they should be able to resume their prior line.

Ha! We dont allow that crap in our club. Two points defines a line. Put your rear tires between those two points. Now your truck is "aligned". It can be facing one direction or the other, but the rear tires must be between the two points.

[The Violator]

Originally Posted by Nova's Ark

Maybe we are all looking at the judging issue from the wrong perspective or angle. Anytime you have one human judging another, at some point in time, their will be a disagreement or discrepancy. It's just the facts of life and we are all humans.

Maybe we should reconsider rules and possibly formats that rely heavily on human judging?

For example, the 5 point rollover penalty was fairly simple to understand 5 years ago. But as issues arose (a competitor rolling over & changing the intended line direction by shifting the truck during the roll over) more definition had to be added to the rules. The rules committee had to define the roll over & procedure. In doing so more responsibility & power was put in the hands of a human judge.

What if the current roll over was removed in favor of an automatic reposition to the last gate cleared?

I am not advocating anything specifically and I use the roll over as a simple example. I am wondering what changes are going to bring the best results. There has been a lot of good discussion in this thread about a number of issues and possible fixes. I'd like to see that continue. The USRCCA and it's Rules Committee are in here reading and responding. Positive discussions will deliver positive results. Let's keep that in mind as we discuss

I think any time you need to touch a car it should be 10 and to the last gate. But then again I am for less rules.

[The Violator]

Originally Posted by JeremyH

Ha! We dont allow that crap in our club. Two points defines a line. Put your rear tires between those two points. Now your truck is "aligned". It can be facing one direction or the other, but the rear tires must be between the two points.

I would say if you cannot get a car stable at the last gate, then within a car length of the gate would be good enough. The idea of a reposition is kind of a do over for the next gate. As long as you are close to the last gate progressed, that should be good enough.

[4xFord]

Originally Posted by RcBro

If you have an issue with judging, bodies, or events a new thread should have been made to talk about that subject. Now we got 10 pages of lost information yet again and looks like ravaging girls.

I thought most people have been on topic of the tread title "Rules, Issues, and Public Concerns."

Im really glad that this thread exists and so many people finally feel comfortable to discuss their issues and observations.

[ROCKEDUP RICKY]

Originally Posted by The Violator

I would say if you cannot get a car stable at the last gate, then within a car length of the gate would be good enough. The idea of a reposition is kind of a do over for the next gate. As long as you are close to the last gate progressed, that should be good enough.

Thats in the rules, about repoing on a unstable gate.

[JeremyH]

Originally Posted by The Violator

I would say if you cannot get a car stable at the last gate, then within a car length of the gate would be good enough. The idea of a reposition is kind of a do over for the next gate. As long as you are close to the last gate progressed, that should be good enough.

Of course there are specific situations that will make placement at each gate different. If a car is not able to be placed in a stable manner, the judge should assign a predetermined location and place all competitors who need a repo for that gate at that spot.