2014 scale rules discussion or question thead

[doublej]

I will add gate width to the docket of things to discuss but I just took a tape measure to my scx10 and wraith.......
12in min for c2 gates and my scx10 is 9 in wide.
13in min for c3 gates and my wraith is 11.5 wide.

Class3 was designed before the wraith was released and meant to be the harder of the 3 classes.
Now I do see what you saying, but I drive a wraith in local comps - Some gates are right at 13, but not many. And even when they are, that's part of comping - pick your line and avoid the gates.

[TURTLE]

Originally Posted by binaryterror

Why are the gates so tight for a stock Wraith? Being this is the only class legal for the Wraith in box stock form, wouldn't it be beneficial to somewhat understand an 11.3" stock width truck will be at a disadvantage compared to another truck much narrower?

This I agree could be talked about within the committee, but also that it is the minimum, no where in the rules does it say gates must be set at 13", but simply 13" is the minimum. Many issues seem to arise, because of interpretation of the rules rather then comprehension of them.

[War Pig]

Originally Posted by binaryterror

Why are the gates so tight for a stock Wraith? Being this is the only class legal for the Wraith in box stock form, wouldn't it be beneficial to somewhat understand an 11.3" stock width truck will be at a disadvantage compared to another truck much narrower?

When you have a rule set, it should not single out a RTR kit as "oops sorry, you better go buy some parts to help or drive completely differently than those with narrower axles".

RTR kits made to fit a class perfectly should be the a basis on a class, not at an immediate disadvantage. To draw in new blood to the hobby. Without new people this hobby will stagnate and slow, and we know its happened before in RC Crawling.

__________________________________________________ __

Also, as this is a Scale rules, shouldn't we follow 1:1 rules a bit more than we do? It appears the USRCCA holds closer to real rules.

A point out/time out standard penalty is normal in 1:1 crawling. This should never be based on another driver as that could really manipulate scores. Yes it should be higher than USRCCA or WERock's 40 points so people can still run hopefully the entire course, maybe 100 points.

The minimum gate width is 13" which is 1 1/2" wider than a Wraith. Not all gates are that narrow, and some are much wider. It helps to slow people down and watch tire placement. I've watched many people with stock width Wraiths navigate courses in my local club without issues. I know it would be much easier with 16" gate widths but isn't this a lot more fun?

As far as the scale rules.....it's very difficult to come up with a universal rule set for scale competitions due to all the variables between classes. We really want to keep the "fun factor" here and don't worry, like Turtle said, we are working on a point out and DNF formula.....we just want to make sure people still have plenty of drive time.

[sgtbham]

Originally Posted by sgtbham

Would a drop bed on a bronco get drop bed points or SUV cargo area points? I realize that a bronco is an SUV but there is no difference in the work involved installing a drop bed in it as opposed to say a hilux - one just lives under a (in this case removable) top

Just curious

[R2j]

Originally Posted by sgtbham

Just curious

You would go with the interior scoring......So for example, 3D with 2 seat -4 + -1 for suv or 4 seat -5 + -1. Make sense?

Interior:
• 3D interior: 1 seat -3, 2 seat (or bench) -4, 4 seat -5 (any 3D interior must include seat, dash, steering wheel
and floor). A 3D SUV cargo area will be awarded an additional -1

[sgtbham]

Originally Posted by R2j

You would go with the interior scoring......So for example, 3D with 2 seat -4 + -1 for suv or 4 seat -5 + -1. Make sense?



Interior:

• 3D interior: 1 seat -3, 2 seat (or bench) -4, 4 seat -5 (any 3D interior must include seat, dash, steering wheel

and floor). A 3D SUV cargo area will be awarded an additional -1

I guess I should have worded that differently, shouldn't a cargo area be worth as much as a drop bed? They both have fender wells, they both drop down. If I put a cap on a truck bed the difference becomes even less.

[R2j]

Since it is a SUV the interior and cargo area are all one. Drop bed is drop bed. And really, the points would be same same if you had a single cab 2 seat and drop bed. Only way to get more is a quad cab drop bed.

[sgtbham]

Originally Posted by R2j

Since it is a SUV the interior and cargo area are all one. Drop bed is drop bed. And really, the points would be same same if you had a single cab 2 seat and drop bed. Only way to get more is a quad cab drop bed.

Thanks for getting back to me RJ!

This is how I was counting it-

-4 for the interior, -1 for the cargo area

-4 for the interior, -3 for the drop bed

I get what you are saying though, I guess it's something I would like to be discussed. It's just as hard to put in a truly detailed cargo area as it is a drop bed, the points should be the same in my opinion. Anyhow, as always thanks for your time guys!

[doublej]

Originally Posted by sgtbham

Thanks for getting back to me RJ!

This is how I was counting it-

-4 for the interior, -1 for the cargo area

-4 for the interior, -3 for the drop bed

I get what you are saying though, I guess it's something I would like to be discussed. It's just as hard to put in a truly detailed cargo area as it is a drop bed, the points should be the same in my opinion. Anyhow, as always thanks for your time guys!

That extra 2 points is because there is extra walls when its a truck bed. More material, more weight, more time building, etc.
But I have nothing against adding it to the SC docket for things to discuss - consider it added!

[War Pig]

Originally Posted by sgtbham

Thanks for getting back to me RJ!

This is how I was counting it-

-4 for the interior, -1 for the cargo area

-4 for the interior, -3 for the drop bed

I get what you are saying though, I guess it's something I would like to be discussed. It's just as hard to put in a truly detailed cargo area as it is a drop bed, the points should be the same in my opinion. Anyhow, as always thanks for your time guys!

I think the biggest thing is that a cargo area is typically half the size of a pickup bed. Just make a simple cargo bed and add inner fender wells, you get -2 points for the combo.

[Tgreer]

Is this considered truggy or back half -4 points, or is it considered a full tuber -8?
I'm not sure. All the tubing is welded to the scx10 frame rails as one structure , does not have an internal cage in the cab, and the shock hoops are just metal ones that bolt to the stock frame rail location.

[R2j]

It would be tube bed metal -3. Truggy needs to have the frame rails cut off behind the cab and then tube integrated into the rest of the tube work from where it was cut, and tuber is an full complete chassis made of tubing.



• Tube bed OR flatbed: metal -3, plastic -1

[Tgreer]

Thank you!

[sally1800]

I am not sure how to do the score of Dnf

Rules state 20 plus highest score.

Do the placement go only by time or most gates cleared?

Every one gets the same final score on Dnf ?

[binaryterror]

Originally Posted by sally1800

I am not sure how to do the score of Dnf

Rules state 20 plus highest score.

Welcome to the club.

The rules are take the highest scored DNF, and remove the progress. Yes that means you could be an outlandish score with no chance to do well. Terrible way to score DNF's for competition, fine for a GTG.

Every one gets the same final score on Dnf ?

Well minus progress, but yet all would be based off 1 score, just some may have more progress than others.

[doublej]

The current DNF wording is being reworked, it won't be the same next year.

[sally1800]

Originally Posted by binaryterror

The rules are take the highest scored DNF, and remove the progress. Yes that means you could be an outlandish score with no chance to do well. Terrible way to score DNF's for competition, fine for a GTG.



Well minus progress, but yet all would be based off 1 score, just some may have more progress than others.

What is you where that driver that ran a perfect course but got stuck at the finish gate. Then a different driver screws the pooch. 25 back ups 5 gates three winches and a repair. that stars you both at 114. But what if he gets threw all the gates as well but times out as well

Both drivers get 94 because of the pooch?

[binaryterror]

Originally Posted by sally1800

What is you where that driver that ran a perfect course but got stuck at the finish gate. Then a different driver screws the pooch. 25 back ups 5 gates three winches and a repair. that stars you both at 114. But what if he gets threw all the gates as well but times out as well

Both drivers get 94 because of the pooch?

Originally Posted by doublej

The current DNF wording is being reworked, it won't be the same next year.

We just have to wait and see. I feel the guys on the committee have heard about this plenty and will have a good solution. I've only been to 1 major SORCCA run event, it was still a blast and I plan to be at many more.

I'm all against a finish line. 10 gates? The final gate is 10 to prevent drivers getting more points or timeout concerns after he completes the 10 gates. If you want 10 and a finish, that's 11 gates, call it what it is.

[War Pig]

Originally Posted by binaryterror

Welcome to the club.

The rules are take the highest scored DNF, and remove the progress. Yes that means you could be an outlandish score with no chance to do well. Terrible way to score DNF's for competition, fine for a GTG.

This is incorrect. You take the highest finishing score and add 20, then subtract the progresses. This is on each course. It is being reworked so stay tuned.

[War Pig]

Here's an example:

Course 1

Driver penalties:

6 gates (60)
1 roll over (5)
18 reverses (18 )
3 winches (9)

He ends up with a score of 72 (92 minus 20 for progresses) and this is the highest numerical score of anyone that finished the course. This number (72) is what we base the DNF off of.

72 +20 - progress.

The problem with this equation is that someone that DNF's and gets 9 progresses ends up with a 94 which I believe is too little of a spread between someone that finishes and someone that doesn't. This is because this equation was originally designed when progresses were 1 point, it should have been doubled (to +40) when progresses were changed to -2. Another issue is that you have to wait until everyone runs the course before you can figure out DNF scores.

Like I said earlier, we are working on a solution.